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LaviArray
Приєднався 11 лют 2007
Laviarray takes an (over)analysis of Shows, Tropes, and characters
IDW Sonic OCs Debate - Feat Mayday
Mayday drops by once again to defend the Idw Sonic comics. This time, we discuss if the IDW exclusive characters like Surge, Kit, Lanolin and more are really worth having in the games or even the comics.
Thumbnail and timestamps by @DerpADuhThatsMe as always!
You can find Mayday at: ArtMayday
0:00 Introduction.
0:41 Explanation.
4:28 Trying To Debate Whisper the Wolf.
11:59 Conversation Refresh.
14:24 The Side Character Problem.
17:08 Surge Debate.
55:50 Speculative Worries.
1:04:44 Moving On!
1:11:51 Tangle Pushed To The Side.
1:14:20 “It’s SEGA’s Fault!” Debate.
1:30:07 Sonic IDW Is Directionless.
1:38:45 Wrapping Up.
Thumbnail and timestamps by @DerpADuhThatsMe as always!
You can find Mayday at: ArtMayday
0:00 Introduction.
0:41 Explanation.
4:28 Trying To Debate Whisper the Wolf.
11:59 Conversation Refresh.
14:24 The Side Character Problem.
17:08 Surge Debate.
55:50 Speculative Worries.
1:04:44 Moving On!
1:11:51 Tangle Pushed To The Side.
1:14:20 “It’s SEGA’s Fault!” Debate.
1:30:07 Sonic IDW Is Directionless.
1:38:45 Wrapping Up.
Переглядів: 2 190
Відео
The End of SonAmy Debate - Ft Mayday
Переглядів 1,6 тис.Місяць тому
MayDay: ArtMayday Timestamps: 0:00 Introduction. 0:50 Ending Sonamy’s Will They? Won’t They? 1:56 Thoughts. 6:53 How Does This Benefit Amy? 10:26 Franchise Standstill. 16:34 They Had No Plan. 19:55 Identity Confused Franchise. 27:27 Poor Knuckles. 29:07 Fan Feedback To Lore. 36:49 Sonic Could Benefit From New Visions. 40:50 Franchise’s Struggle With Multi-Media Canon. 51:11 IDW’s Ch...
Rise and Fall of Ian Flynn - LaviCast Feat IanWaffles
Переглядів 13 тис.3 місяці тому
@KirbySonicTeam and I get together to discuss Flynn and his creative journey with Sonic the Hedgehog! Comment below and share your thoughts Thumbnail done as always by the amazing @DerpADuhThatsMe Timestamps: 0:00 Introduction. 2:42 Penders Era Archie. 13:33 Flynn Era Archie 1, Preboot. 33:06 Quick Preboot Thoughts. 37:14 Flynn Era Archie 2, Reboot. 48:48 Worldbuilding Over Character-Writing. 1...
Lavicast: Knuckles Feat Derpaduh and Ianwaffles
Переглядів 6204 місяці тому
@KirbySonicTeam , @DerpADuhThatsMe and I get together to discuss the ups and downs of Paramount's (Wade &) Knuckles! Comment below and share your thoughts Thumbnail done as always by the amazing @DerpADuhThatsMe Timestamps: 0:00 Introduction. 1:50 The Two Elephants In The Room. 6:05 Host (and Co-Hosts’.) Show Reactions. 16:45 Episode 4’s Entertaining Insanity. 31:12 Episode 3’s Fun Absurdity. 3...
LaviCast: The Electric Tale of Pikachu Feat Derpaduh
Переглядів 3256 місяців тому
@DerpADuhThatsMe and I get together to discuss Pokemon's most infamous manga series. Comment below and share your thoughts Thumbnail done as always by the brilliant @DerpADuhThatsMe Timestamps: 0:00 Introduction. 3:30 Volume 1 48:45 Volume 2 1:11:20 Legendary/Mythical Tangent. 1:19:51 (Continued.) Volume 2. 1:28:10 Pokémon’s “Shadow” Tangent. 1:30:50 Finishing Volume 2. 1:35:44 Volume 3. 1:44:2...
LaviCast: Sonic Prime Final Season Discussion Feat IanWaffles and Derpaduh
Переглядів 1,7 тис.7 місяців тому
@KirbySonicTeam , @DerpADuhThatsMe and I get together to discuss the ups and downs of the final season of Sonic Prime! Comment below and share your thoughts Thumbnail done as always by the amazing @DerpADuhThatsMe Timestamps: 0:00 Introduction Series Recap. 3:43 Season 3 Summary 4:54 Waffles & Derp Retrospections. 9:12 Sonic Universe “Verses” Nine Diamond. 18:22 Nine’s “Happy Ending.” 20:06 Bad...
The Lost Potential of Loonatics Unleashed Lavicast Ft. IanWaffles
Переглядів 5737 місяців тому
@KirbySonicTeam and I sit down to discuss Loonatics Unleashed, how many critics fail to understand the actual problem with the show and how it could've been good with the right influences. Thumbnail done by the awesome @DerpADuhThatsMe Artwork featured in the video done by Deebsio KrazyELFsfw 0:00 Introduction. 2:05 Premise, Aesthetic, Structure. 6:17 Failing Comedy. 9:5...
Lavicast: IDW Sonic 62-67 + Specials Discussion
Переглядів 3,8 тис.8 місяців тому
@DerpADuhThatsMe , @KirbySonicTeam and I get together to discuss the newest IDW issues, from 62-67 and the seasonal specials Thumbnail done by the awesome Derpaduh 0:00 Introduction. 1:55 Amy & Knuckles, Echidna Relic, Zzz. 12:13 Sonaze, No Civilians, Dialogue, References! 22:20 Clutch Is Back, Lacklustre Stakes, S Tier Plan. 30:34 Who’s Mimic? Silver & Whisper Fumble. 36:32 What‘s The Moral? L...
Lavicast: Sonic Frontiers The Final Horizon Discussion
Переглядів 2,5 тис.11 місяців тому
DerpADuh, Ianwaffles and Myself follow up our Sonic Frontiers conversation to discuss the new DLC updates to the game, Final Horizon. Derpaduh: 2Derpaduh Ianwaffles: IanWaffles Thumbnail done by the awesome Derpaduh! Timestamps: 0:00 Introduction. 1:18 New Character Gameplay. 5:25 Art Direction, Gameplay Mechanics, Level Design. 11:47 The Feel Of Control. 18:29 We’re All...
LaviCast: Sonic Prime Season 2 Discussion Feat IanWaffles and Derpaduh
Переглядів 1,4 тис.Рік тому
@KirbySonicTeam, @DerpADuhThatsMe and I get together to discuss the ups and downs of the newest season of Sonic Prime! Comment below and share your thoughts Thumbnail done as always by the spectacular @DerpADuhThatsMe Timestamps: 0:00 Introduction. 2:31 Sonic, Seasonal Structure, Fight Nuance. 9:31 Chaos Sonic, Just Short Of Perfection. 19:32 Shadow Was Wasted. (Again.) 23:34 Sonic’s Goof And H...
How IDW Sonic Fails The Characters
Переглядів 8 тис.Рік тому
@KirbySonicTeam and I get together to talk about the failings of the character writing in IDW Sonic. Art during the intro: storminghearts Thumbnail done by the awesome @DerpADuhThatsMe Timestamps: 0:00 Introduction. 3:13 Sonic. 10:23 Whisper. 15:21 “The IDW OC’s.” 18:45 Knuckles. 20:06 Personalities (And Punch). 29:10 Lacklustre Arcs/Plots Of The Comic. 51:44 Coming Full Circle (Arc...
Spider-man Across the Spiderverse Lavicast Ft. IanWaffles, Derpaduh
Переглядів 507Рік тому
@TheOneAndOnlyDerpADuh , @KirbySonicTeam and I get together to discuss the newest Spiderman movie and our conflicting thoughts on the themes. Thumbnail done by the awesome Derpaduh Twitter links 2Derpaduh IanWaffles laviarray 0:00 Introduction. 6:00 Villain of the Week: Spot. 18:30 (Miguel’s.) Spider-Cult. 30:14 Spider-Man Brand Meta. 33:37 Peter B(lunder.)...
IDW Sonic Urban Warfare Arc LaviCast Feat. IanWaffles and DerpAduh
Переглядів 4,9 тис.Рік тому
@DerpADuhThatsMe, @KirbySonicTeam and I get together to discuss the newest arc from IDW Sonic and how it's possibly showing the end for this comic might be coming sooner than we know. Thumbnail done by the awesome Derpaduh Twitter links 2Derpaduh IanWaffles laviarray 0:00 Introduction. 2:20 Tangle, Whisper & Lanolin. 11:47 Expanding on the Title. 27:06 Tangle...
The Super Mario Bros. Movie Lavicast Feat. IanWaffles, KrazyElf and Derpaduh
Переглядів 752Рік тому
@ELFeek , @KirbySonicTeam , @DerpADuhThatsMe and I get together to discuss the newest video game to break the streak of good video game movies. Thumbnail by the awesome @DerpADuhThatsMe 0:00 Introduction. 7:44 Does Mario Have A Hardcore Fanbase? 11:21 Incredibly Safe, On-Brand With Games. 14:45 Consequences Of Directly Adaptating. 22:26 Some Character Talk. 27:52 DK! Donkey Kong! 31:44 Princess...
Avataro Sentai Donbrothers Discussion
Переглядів 223Рік тому
@KirbySonicTeam and I talk about the newest sentai series, Donbrothers Thumbnail done by the awesome: @DerpADuhThatsMe 0:00 Introduction. 4:24 Crazy Premise and Cast. 17:37 Taro/Red and Sonoi. 20:42 Super Simp Tsuyoshi/Pink. 23:57 Brain Trio, Enemies to Allies. 27:45 The Show’s Subtle Message. 28:48 Ending Talk, Prelude. 30:27 Ending Talk, Black. 40:47 Ending Talk, Pink. 52:02 Ending Talk, Red....
IDW Sonic Surge and Kit Discussion FT KrazyELF and Ianwaffles
Переглядів 4 тис.Рік тому
IDW Sonic Surge and Kit Discussion FT KrazyELF and Ianwaffles
In my opinion get a life
I believe deep in my bones that they should have just gone full action slapstick with this. It could have worked so well, especially sonce the Looney tunes already have such defined, ego driven personalities that would make fantastic little stories. And the fun they could have had referencing classic characters and shorts and gags. It could have been great.
No "OCs" gemerl
He’s a Sonic Advance 3 character.
@@mrme.484 yes true
What's the point of Knuckles or Blae if you remove those aspect of their charater and the world? The fact they bring em to the table? For theit design? To me it comes off as jangling keys. I dunno how we insist in this but go on about adding charaters that dont add anything other than them being there.
I have a pitch for Surge and Kit, actually, which I think would help flesh out the world overall. For Surge, I started by giving her an actual name instead of a codename(I went with Verity, but that's just what came to mind. I ended up liking it.) and an actual backstory with relationships to people outside the circle of characters we've seen in the comic. I was gonna give her a dad and a best friend who the dad doesn't like. Then eventually(after we've already met her), we'd meet the dad, who I ended up calling Victor, tearing through an eggman base by himself, ripping robots apart with his bare hands while looking for his daughter. Like, he doesn't even have any special powers, he's just really pissed off, kind of like Knuckleduster from MHA Vigilantes. Her best friend was gonna be this kleptomaniac raccoon boy named Delta. As for Kit, I changed him from a Fennec to a Kit Fox, which is the smallest Fox in North America. He was gonna be so small he could fit into a backpack, which I thought was pretty cute, but the twist is that Kit is actually a Kitsune. Instead of the water powers thing, I was gonna make it where Kit has a regenerative healing factor and his senses are so heightened, he can picture almost perfectly what's going on on the other side of a wall. Later on he was gonna develop extra powers. Of course, neither of them remember their old lives, which makes it a complete mystery for Kit's side of things, because Starline only left vague notes about him on his computers.
Archie Sonic is peak IDW Sonic is mid
Interestingly, sonics morality is very similar to that of Goku's during the Moro arc. Goku has a conversation with Merus that has a similar tune to Sonics convo with Surge where he is asked why he lets his enemies live and why doesn't kill them. Similar to sonic his reasoning is pretty selfish in that he keeps enemies around because he's confident if they get stronger and stay evil he will just get stronger then them and stop them, and after this has happened enough times they will hopefully turn good. The manga tries to justify Goku's decision by showing how only through the help of people that Goku has spared and let change (the androids, Vegeta, Majin Buu, and Uub) does he beat Moro, but this ignores the fact that he lets someone like Frieza roam free where in instances like the end of the Broly movie we know that Frieza just casually destroys planets (killing millions if not billions) just for fun, so people do suffer from Goku's decisions. Thankfully the manga doesn't repeatedly ask this question to Goku, or even really try to justify it explicitly, but the criticism is still there. For Sonic you can point to something like how him not having Metal Sonic decommissioned before the metal virus outbreak is what eventually lead to them saving the day because he was there to help take down Zavok in the end, but the issues with keeping around someone like Eggman or Zavok still exists.
What I want to believe Clutch is representing them as heroes as a distraction and for P.R. Clean Sweeps other "activities" Sonic is most likely an ESTP an extravert and thrill seeker, Surge is an unhealthy ESTP attention and thrill seeking are taken to the extreme forever chasing the high. Planning and self reflection generally go against that personalities nature when it's inexperienced. Kit is her yang to her yin, but he's won't have that conversation. As submissive and obsessed as he is of Surge, would he let her change? He doesn't take change or being away from her well, would he fail to let her change thinking in his mind he knows whats best for both of them. Kit doesn't handle being alone well, would he manipulate her into Goin bad again, get insecure and jealous of the attention she's getting. Keep in mind she may be a rewritten Scourge from Archie on some level.
Seeing all these characters (and Gemrl) lined up really highlights that these character designers really like their whites, blacks, greens and yellows.
I think the reasons Scrapnik Island works so well and why the rest of the comic doesn’t is that: 1. It doesn’t feel like an apology for Forces and the characterizations in that game. 2. Sonic isn’t quick to just trust Mecha Sonic right off the bat, he’s given time to trust Mecha. 3. It isn’t trying to be a meta commentary on anything involving the state of the franchise. It’s tries to be an actual story. 4. Mecha’s entire story and motive is developed upon. It’s shown, not told, and he gets a satisfying ending to his arc. I’m going to die on this hill, Scrapnik Mecha Sonic is the best character to come from IDW.
I don't think this should be the downfall of ian...he just needs to take the criticism and change up his writing a bit and with his skills I'm sure he can do something that benefits himself, company and dans
Quality podcast right here. I couldn't keep reading IDW and you succinctly summarized the reasons why. This comic is like being in limbo. I didn't read the latest chapters so maybe Evan can make it better?? Also am I the only one who hates how tacked-on the Zeti are? They are still one-note bad guys from Lost World, but this time they KILL people FOR REAL, so DARK and MATURE! These guys are a load of bull.
Yeah, Flynn completely missed the point. The Zeti were never meant to be taken that seriously as villains. Even before Lost World was released, it was stated they were created to bring a sense of humor and danger to the story. The only one meant to be taken remotely seriously is Zavok, the rest are just his wacky minions.
It's really nice to see, that both have some good points. In the previous video I agreed with Lavi, in this one with Mayday. I think the general issue that falls upon the topics in this video, is what the comics are about. Are the comics about Sonic and the Restoration, or about the characters and stories in the series in general, with different arcs or issues having different main characters. Another thought about the whole Surge discussion (and let me state here, that I do not like Surge all too much), is that a character can change their core traits through character development, which seems to fall under what Lavi calls "rewriting" (at least from what I understood in this context). Yes, there would be an eventual point where Surge would have to come to a decision and such, but that doesn't mean the issues detailing that path to there are a complete waste, cause that time could have been used on other characters. Like it or not, there really isn't too much flexibility for the game cast, so for any larger growth you just have to use these... well... OCs. Also to bear in mind, is that my perspective is from what's given, trying to steer away from the "it should have been done differently" or "it would be much better if the comics were their own thing" and all that. I hope that I at least managed to somewhat convey my thoughts 😅
Surge is the best new addition to the cast. This just feels like another "idw sonic is bad" video. Aks judging from your other idw videos I'm correct to think that. There's always a few haters
Trip >>> Surge
@@RealBroccoliHourtrip is just so basic Mabye if they expanded on her character a bit or showed her backstory she might have been better. She’s just so basic as of right now and surge and kit is just more flushed out.
@@unkownunkown2420 Surge and Kit’s potential was already flushed down the toliet tbh.
@@RealBroccoliHour surge and kit story line isn’t done, you can’t say a character has wasted potential when the story didn’t even show us there full potential yet
@@RealBroccoliHour I would honestly say that trip has wasted potential, as we don’t even know if she’s gonna appear in the future classic sonic games and in any other stories while surge and kit appeared multiple times throughout the comics not just her debut
I used to read the Archie Sonic comics when I was younger and I always loved them to bits. It’s what got me into comics in general, and I remember loving the Mecha-Sally arc that Ian wrote. When I found out that Archie had a reboot, I didn’t think much of it and read it anyway, coz it was Sonic. But now I’m a bit older and can actually identify what good writing is… yeah, reboot Archie isn’t all that great. It’s not bad from what I read, but Preboot will always be better. And now, IDW. I remember reading it the first time, and just… that feeling of.. I don’t know, emptiness? It just felt so bland to me, even back then. And while recently I decided to try to get through IDW with a pinch of salt, I just always thought to myself “this is no way as good as what Ian wrote for Archie.” And I think I’m right about that.
Not trying to be an asshole here but the guy that keeps stuttering, starting sentences over and going uh uh uh really needs to work on talking if he wants to be in arguments and podcasts. Really irritating.
yeah ngl he also always sounds mildly annoyed or irritated, I think he just needs to take a deep breath and chill a little more when recording these
To be fair this entire stream is just them hating on idw which they no every videopr stream
IDW, and specifically the Metal Virus arc really got me into the comics, but then I read Flynn Era PreBoot, and it makes me wonder what made Ian fall off so hard. PreBoot was amazing, and makes IDW look like a joke.
Best thing they can do with Surge after her story is resolved is go from chaotic evil to chaotic neutral, and have her leave the story and come back every now and then when they’re needed. She could be those hype characters that when you see them you actually get excited but she better be strong enough to to not get washed up, and actually do cool sh*t to generate a stronger aura. Surge is the only reason I got into idw so if there’s something way better than this then I prefer that outcome instead. I want this character to be treated with respect!
We need an IDW equivalent to Archie Sonic Universe
It would fix so many character problems
We already have that with the mini series arcs they publish. That usually makes problems worse.
@@laviarray that's because the writers don't put any effort into it like sonic universe
@@laviarray mini series is limited by the fact that it's story shorter while sonic universe was long spin off comic that can give characters other then sonic a story that either expand the characters or been a filler But i feel like that won't happen in the fear that (maybe) it well flopped
@newdawnhorizon9879 yes they do
Characters can have there own plot lines that don't need to connect into other peoples, thats not an issue, it's actually a good thing because it allows writers to focus on something other than the main plot and eventually write in that connection at a later date, like two separate streams eventually connecting.
Yes, for a side character that shows up once every six years. Not a character they dedicate a year of content to and want to be a main character. That's textbook losing perspective and what leads people to say an OC gets more attention that the game cast.
@@laviarray None of the side characters are main characters tho, they are just side characters to add to the world of IDW like Archie did but unlike Archie there is 200+ issues and side issues and spin-offs comics to do stuff with them.
" game cast" vs "idw cast" is stupid They are all main characters in sonic
@@reggielacey2235 Exactly.
@@laviarray there is such thing as a main side character, they don't always have to connect through the plot, just because you don't like the way it's being done doesn't mean it's being done poorly.
The problem is Surge and Kit were supposed to be the characters that directly challenge Sonic's philosophy of giving everyone complete freedom no matter how bad the consequences. They were supposed to be living representations of how his beliefs perpetuate this cycle of pain and misery for everyone else. Giving villains their freedom takes away everyone else's freedom. That's supposed to be the main, overarching storyline of the comics if I'm not mistaken, especially with issue 50 being this "main event" kind of issue. The problem is they're no longer ACTUALLY addressing this issue. They're no longer addressing what made Surge and Kit villains in the first place. At least it doesn't seem like it. That's why everything doesn't make sense. The characters' stories aren't tying together because there's nothing to tie into anymore. Now it seems like they're just reducing it to everyone has freedom of choice. Well yes, but not when your "freedom of choice" is quite literally taken away from you all because a certain "hero" refuses to permanently stop the people doing that. The comics are supposed to circle back to this conflict they started in issue 50 and ultimately resolve it. But it doesn't look like they're doing that as of right now. So while the story might eventually turn out ok with Surge and Kit becoming good, the way they're doing that is bad. The comics should resolve the main issue by allowing Sonic to realize that true justice cannot exist with his idea of "freedom." That's how Surge, Kit, and everyone else's stories would tie into Sonic's story. But they're not doing that. They made a big deal out of this "freedom" vs. "justice" debate, and now they refuse to resolve it.
Honestly I think they are just taking them in a different direction, I do agree that the main story beat they were meant to tackle has been left waiting, but that doesn't mean it won't be picked up again later, I do think the solution that they will come to is sonic fully excepting that there is no right answer and that he just needs to live the way he does even though that's the case.
@@TiredMoonRabbit They can take them in a different direction. I have no problem with that. Heck, they can take them in a million different directions. But they need to show us how this is all gonna tie back into the main conflict. We should be seeing "hints" here and there throughout these comics that show how this is all gonna lead up to Sonic's beliefs being challenged by everyone on a much larger scale - and we're not seeing that. Like how Laviarray said, the comics should show how Surge turning good based solely on the positive reactions from other people is a bad thing. They haven't shown that. They're making it seem like it's a good thing. There's no foreshadowing anywhere in the recent comics that this is ultimately gonna lead to her downfall. So even if they have a better plan, they sure are making it seem like this is how their gonna resolve her and Kit's entire conflict - just turning them good.
@@arielk0231 I mean sure, but it could be there and just hard to see because the story isn't over yet or the plan on doing it at another point in time
@@TiredMoonRabbit That's true. They could still be going with the original plot, even if they're not communicating it that clearly. I guess only time will tell.
@arielk0231 First off, the debate that IDW "tries" to set up does not apply to the actual games. Eggman does not survive battle with Sonic from Sonic following a code forbidding killing it's: A. Sonic not being bothered to do more than smack Eggman around then leaving when he's down B. Eggman being in a toon world where it's easy survive explosions and falls from space as long as you're a main character rather than Maria. Sonic refusing to kill Eggman is just something IDW Sonic has for its take. More importantly Sonic is not a superhero. He does not face villains for society's justice or whatever but from amusement and his values and being bothered. Surge's argument depends on IDW's interpretations of Sonic and Eggman with their dynamic (they aren't Batman and the Joker since both of them would carry on fine if the other just retired among all other differences). Also it's not deep anyway. It's just superhero writing trying to be meta and examining itself. Marvel/DC have plenty of comics trying to ask if superheroes should kill and the answer has no relevance to real issues (IRL law enforcement isn't expected to smoke every suspect, no man is both monstrous enough to be killed immediately without question and dangerous enough that they can't just be put in jail immediately without being an actual ruler or charismatic man able to amass an army rather than a murderous clown able to kill off city without superpowers) and can easily be picked apart (if Batman was really more effective than all of Gotham's law enforcement and the US' government at hunting criminals he'd be the one ruling Gotham).
Whisper and tangle are probably my favorite characters, that being said I do kind of feel like their team up is getting a bit stale. Kind of hoping it’s some point they split the two off for a bit. More for whispers sake, so she can start teaming up with other people.
I mean that's bound to happen, those to just aren't really the main focus right now, we probably will see more focus on those two when mimic is revealed, the new Dimond cutters will be put in disarray.
@@TiredMoonRabbit i’m hoping so too. Glad they touched him the same stuff going on with whisper just with a different marinade. It almost just feels like half of tangles existence is to be whispers Therapist at this point and give her a hug when everything goes wrong.
@@Riot98765 yeah, that's kinda the issue with long running, single focus comics like this, we really need more side books that can explore other characters more thoroughly, but maybe sega doesn't want that, for now we have to wait until a writer has a story that's main focused that is about specifically one of them.
WE NEED MORE MEN!
That are good guys
@@newdawnhorizon9879 and do stuff
@@newdawnhorizon9879 and original
To sort of directly compare with Archie, typically the mainline Archie comics for Sonic had a plethora of secondary characters that populated different regions of the world that made the story and general world building a lot more lively, and we'll realized. They were never uber intrusive (barring the Echidnas I suppose), and the focus was almost always on the main cast of characters, being Sonic primarily, and the Freedom Fighters second. With IDW, Sonic and Co. are secondary, and while the OC characters are primary it feels like.
Brother. Sally Acorn had her own issues for almost half the run. What are you talking about.
@@akdreamer6497 Never said she didn't lmao. I wasn't talking about any one character individually, and character personalities isn't what's being discussed. It's how dominant the OC cast feels like in comparison to the main cast of characters. (Although I completely agree with you lol, Sally was a whole mess of problems after Sonic comes back from space lmao)
@@VellFox98 it just felt incorrect for you to say Archie focused more on the main characters when that was never really the case.
0:00:55 I disagree with this one. The franchise I think has the most in common with Sonic, both in terms of the titular character sharing the same character archetype as well following a similar story formula (at least with the games), would be Lupin III, which is twice as old as Sonic is but has really only been using the same 5 main characters the whole time. 1:21:49 I've been saying this for the longest time. For as weird and stupid as the mandates may seem, they're ultimately rather innocuous when it comes to just writing a simple fun adventure story, which they've shown to be perfectly capable of doing when it comes to the Annuals/Specials/On-shot comics. The problem is that they're only now finding out that the stories they really want to write just don't work with the versions of the characters they now have, and it's leading to a lot of "square peg -> round hole" scenarios. 1:31:00 Murder of Sonic the Hedgehog is a great example and is honestly what the comics should've been at the very least.
Thought we'd get more on Belle or any of the other characters this dialogue.
This is one of few videos I've seen that critics Flynn pretty fairly. They aren't disrespectful towards him and his accomplishments, and have fair points to problems that have been in most of his works. I think Flynn is a good idea man, he does some real great pulls from the Sonic franchise that are very appreciated and he's always been clearly a fan first. However, he often fails to conclude story arcs in IDW in a satisfying or meaningful matter. Metal Virus had a really neat Super Sonic and Super Silver fight with a powered up Zavok, but what happened afterwards was really messy.
Honestly when I saw this video in my recommendations, I thought it was gonna be way worse
Tbh, although I don't really read much about this guy's comics (and I... really DON'T care, i consider him just another writer anyway), one thing that did annoy me was that he basically implies that sonic first met eggman DURING sonic 1, even tho it's basically obvious that it is not their first time meeting (like how eggman is always prepared to attack sonic and how the December 2020 sonic channel page of Dr eggman is still saying that they met before sonic 1, not during it.), heck not even S1's opening cutscene in the game implies it's their first time meeting, unlike sonic 2's cutscene where it is obvious that tails first met sonic there. This isn't even the first time he wrote it like this, in the sonic genesis comics (aka the time eggman just reset the universe the first time), which adapts sonic 1 and 2, eggman and sonic first met there. Ian Flynn just... really has a habit of just making eggman and sonic first meet in the 1st game instead of before. Lol
I think this just wouldn't be a problem if it were more like the games in the first place. Eggman in the games is depicted as a bad guy sure, but he's not outright, explicitly shown to be like, evil incarnate. He's just an egotistical jerk placing his mark everywhere, like a vain politician. Yes, realistically that kind of person would likely be a dictator and responsible for killing a lot of people... buuuuut this isn't the real world. it's a funny talking cartoon animal one, and I think this whole aspect of his character in the comic is an outdated carryover from the SatAM variation which, itself, was just a black-and-white "cute critters protect the environment" narrative. At worst his schemes get out of hand when he summons some of godlike entity that threatens a city, the planet, existence. I know there's edge cases where he sets up a bomb in station square or threatens to fire the ARK cannon on earth, but my point is the games never let him cross that line explicitly, he's always stopped or undercut by something else. This allows the character to still be endearing. I don't really think about Sonic needing to do more than take Eggman down a peg in the games, and by extension the games never dwell further on it. And rightly so, since there's no way they could adequately address that without killing a character, metaphorically or literally. It'd be stupid to even bring up.
Oh funny seeing you here haha~
Yes, end of discussion. Just actually have her move on ONSCREEN rather than the weird retconning of her obsessive phase the games have been on. If there's going to be romance in the series, save it for people that AREN'T Sonic, the guy meant to be the Anti-Mario that doesn't go chasing the ladies and a free spirit that doesn't jive with being tied down by a committed relationship.
Ian Flynn is pretty bad at fixing plot holes too when it comes to game writing
Meanwhile Feetway Sonic: not interested in relationships. Also this the idea of Amy not having crush on sonic has been done in sonic the comic and it works for multiple reasons: 1 Sonic is different character thanks of him been a jerk and lacks to express his feelings 2 Amy likes to troll around the idea of been Sonic's GF 3 she has a life outside of sonic 4 she can go on her adventures without him or having it with a another characters like Tekno the canary for example
I'm not as much of a dedicated fan when it comes to Sonic comics (both Archie and IDW), but I do spend some time watching videos and essays related to them. and while I do hear some issue with the latter by some folks recently, and I have some gripes with IDW too. this video really strike the nail on the internal problem from the comic. While I like the characters of IDW, I would lie to myself that I wish that there's more to them than just leaving them without developing any further. it's all ideas (good ideas actually) but with no form of execution or how any of the characters to grow from. especially the comic feature characters despite being more lenient from the SEGA regulations that he keep bringing up. But I guess that you can only blame SEGA far too many times until it becomes more evident that you're also part of the problem with the writing Ian Flynn. I don't know too much about your thoughts on Scrapnik Island, Lavi. to me it's probably the most completed story arc outside of the anniversary classic Sonic comics. it's a generally great comic in it's premise, artwork, and characters. But the fact that the only time Sonic actually connected with the villain with his morals and ended on a good note is written by Daniel Barnes who has little to no input by Ian speak volumes.
I’ve been reading the comments of this vid how in frontiers amy realizes she’s been chasing sonic all her life and wants to move on and better herself , like no that just tells me what you think Amy is and in frontiers nothing about Amy’s history is acknowledge once 😂 not even her love of sonic that shit is gone , at least in the games , in comics and muder it’s still there
In the comics Sonic and Amy's relationship is barely shown and they no longer have a dynamic as intense or as fun as before. In TMOSTH it's just fine.
Haven’t watched the vid yet but from the title , lol amy has moved on from sonic since lost world it’s funny how 90% of the sonic fanbase acts like frontiers changed Amy it’s been like this for years 😂
I truly hate the SonAmy ship and I truly hate Ian Flynn pushing more for it. Genuinely makes me upset. Sonic X Sally for the comics and Sonic X Blaze were both always better anyways.
Flynn is doing the complete opposite here. Did you EVEN WATCH the video bruh?
@@nomnom2407 Have you read the IDW Comics that had him credited as a writer? It paints a completely different picture. Glad he did what he did in Frontiers in getting rid of SonAmy. It just annoys me how the comics haven’t yet.
@@supersonicstyleatsonicspeedIf you want to be technical, everything in the IDW comics so far takes place between Forces and Frontiers.
@@endosaurus1404 True, but it still makes me upset that they’re pushing that narrative in there. Adding onto that, there is cut dialogue penned by Ian Flynn where he was having Sonic want to be with Amy alone under an umbrella. I was pretty upset that he put that dialogue in there in the first place truth be told. That should never have been present to begin with.
Imagine bein' this much of a loser about ships lmao.
I don't think Sega is going to go all the way with the "everything is canon" route. IDW doesn't have much time before they go out of business. Sega may even regret making the comics canon longterm.
Sega trying to make everything cannon isn't necessarily a bad thing, yes they need to be careful when saying something is cannon to the main timeline (sonic prime) but them wanting a comic book and previous games in the same universe isn't actually an issue, if there's a conflicting element in those stories then that just mean there's a story to be made to fix that contradiction, meaning more content, and fans love when the little things get explanations. What it seems like you actually want is for sega to allow there to be off shoot universes that allow the creators to be more experimental, kinda like what marvel and DC do, or how Mario functions after galaxy ( galaxy kinda made it so every mario game is cannon but the timeline is just resetting abunch). On the topic of Amy, I genuinely don't understand what you're talking about, Amy still likes sonic and still has a crush on him, she just isn't chasing after him anymore. You say frontiers either didn't advance Amy's character or that the choice they did for her just doesn't make sense, I disagree, it does make sense and it does advance her character, she's moving on from chasing sonic and at the same time reaffirming her main morals and what she has always wanted to do, it really shows the current climate of the world when people don't understand what "spreading love to the world means" it's very simple, do we not remember hippies?. Sonic frontiers isn't really about pushing forward with these characters as much as it's more about looking backwards to then (if the future) move forward, tails especially emphasizes this with him reflecting on his previous inconsistent characterization, amy is much the same, the story is re-centering all of there characters, kind of like what superhero books do at the end and start of every writers run, or at least it was trying to, the game play and not rso animated animated cut scenes don't help showcase that but it is what they were trying to do. Amy through seeing all the destruction and rebirth of the land as well as seeing the coco that was so dedicated to its partner that even in death it found its way back to them made her realize 1. The world is a big place but is also so fragile and everything on it only has a limited time to be around, and 2. That even if sonic doesn't love her the way she loves him she knows in the end she will always find her way back to him, so she doesn't have to chase him or try to force him to be with her, she can take it slow, appreciate the places she goes and spread love where she can. You not seeing a way for the new comic characters can fit into the games isn't actually an issue that the games might have, all that means is that YOU can't come up with something, doesn't mean the writers can't, now it would be a different conversation if you were to say that you don't think they can, personally I do and I think they have found a place for them you just don't seem to like what that placement is, which is fine but it doesn't mean they don't have one. Here's an idea for whisper to be introduced, tye her into a return of a modern fang story, they kinda feel like they would be great mirrors of each other, or have the Dimond cutters take the place of the chaotic in knuckles chaotic, as a secondary team that handles other issues that the main cast aren't. To summarize it's an issue in your limited way of thinking not the games beings incapable of adding them in. Why do those characters only seem to function for themselves? well because if they did make them more tied into the games cast then that alienates the games audience, similar as to why shadow hasn't been allowed to be shadow, because they want to touch up his character in a game, any formative connection should (and probably will) happen in the games, that way game only fans aren't forced to read the comics, does this thought process mean that there comic growth is stunted until they do appear in the games? Yes and that's an issue, but it's an issue with an easy solution, sega/the writers needs to perl clutch less as well as trust there audience, and if they do appear in the games the games need to come up with a creative way to re-illustrate the history these characters have with each other thats not intrusive or distracting, which can be done. "Sonic should abandon trying to be serious" no, it shouldn't, sonic can flow between the two types of narratives when ever it want, it can be comedic at times and it can be story focused and serious at times, it also can be both at the same time depending on the story. I personally view the idw comics as a slice of life esc form of story telling that sometimes dives into serialization and the games are the main events that push the story and characters forward, if you're not into that then that isn't the comics issue it's yours, maybe it would be more productive to try and push for sega to do like marvel and DC in allowing else worlds and a multiverse, Ian Flynn has mentioned wanting to do a lost hedgehog tales book that is able to revisit the Archie run. This way you can have your more freedom allowed serialized sonic stories (kinda like the ultimate universe both old and new) while the main book, games, and potential shows can continues to progress in the main timeline the way they want it to, just hope it doesn't go the direction of Spider-Man books where the character isn't allowed to grow at all becausedifferent generations grew up with different versions of the character so when they become writers they try to push it back to where they liked it instead of progressing in a logical direction. At the end of the day these issues aren't actual issues, just things that YOU want and feel like you aren't getting, doesn't mean it's bad to want those things, it's just something that should be acknowledged when you're have a discussion of this sort, I hope all of this makes sense and do note I'm not say there aren't any issues with the comics just that the ones I've seen you bring up aren't actually the issues, there more like seven inches to the left of what the actual problem is.
@TiredMoonRabbit Amy spreading light and feelings or whatever wasn't in the JP script.
@@galten7361 really??? Well enlightening me what did she say?
@@galten7361 and crickets, either way doesn't matter because we are talking about this script and what it was trying to say, not that script and what it was trying to get across.
@TiredMoonRabbit She talked about how she was refining herself as a woman. So pretty much what she talked about in Adventure.
@@galten7361 so my point still stands that the purpose of frontiers in both scripts is to re establish these characters and their motivation, they just took it in a slightly different direction.
I honestly agree that Sonic should stop trying to be as melodramatic and “serious” as possible, or at least pull it back, especially IDW. I’d rather the franchise just embrace being more episodic and cartoony at this point, if not at least a fine middle ground between the two.
it’s like the 2010s traumatized us so bad that we forgot they’re still cartoon characters and it’s still a kids franchise, yea you can be serious but let’s have some fun while we’re at it!
@@realer2748kids grow up. Never heard of a kid franchise lasting in the pop culture for decades. Oh wait, the kid franchise Batman!
@@whaleping Sonic is a unique franchise in that this mf just won’t die because hoards of kids get obsessed with him every generation just as we did, typically through external media (most recently the movies). Most of us are only fans because of that attachment we made as kids. Not to say it should be only geared towards them. In fact, I believe the 2000s was probably the most engaging era to be a sonic fan as a child speaking as someone who only came in around the tail end of it. Kids can take media seriously, especially something like sonic, we don’t need to talk down to them. But at it’s core I feel the franchise should have that sense of wonder and youthfulness of a children’s serious. My point was that current sonic tends to play itself a bit too straight and if it’s boring to me I can only imagine what kids must feel at the melodramaticness.
@@realer2748We got the Murder of Sonic the Hedgehog right after Sonic Frontiers. We got Sonic Dream Team, Sonic Superstars, some mobile game crap, and the Knuckles tv show from Sonic Frontiers to now. What are you all talking about? 😅
@@realer2748Goofy ass Sonic Prime was playing it straight?
28:50 you say this like they’ve abided by it for the past 20 years
Wasn't one of the main selling points of Frontiers that they were bringing back continuity and lore expansion? I don't know what you're getting at with your argument.
@@NicheXCCMy point is it’s pretty pointless if everything between SA2 and Frontiers is canon but we still pretend like Knuckles never goes off the island as if angel island has been relevant to him for the last 20 years.
@@realer2748 Again, that's just sega giving a back sit to the lore and Frontiers proved that people do care of consistensy. Even back then people questioned why would there be adventures where Knuckles would leave the ME alone. Altho, the Master Emerald and knuckles protecting it still did serve major plotpoints for past games before Unleashed.
@@NicheXCC In frontiers’ quest to “restore the canon” I feel like it at worst muddys things even worse and at best is just non-satisfying. I don’t take characters sitting around expositing as progression or development. Most, if not all, of the things they say are extremely inconsequential in the grand scheme of things and nothing really happens. Nothing is fixed or brought back it’s just fanservice to me.
@@realer2748 I get that, and I also think that the game lore dump was a bit tedious. But the point still stands, the fans do care for the lore.
This is something I will say before watching and then have another go at it after the video. I’m very much for Amy still crushing on Sonic however, I see her slowly opening her eyes to better options (*cough* Shadow please Sega giving me my Shadamy *cough*). Shows that she’s realizing that her school girl crush has gone and will be evolved into something different. And for the Sonamy shipper who comes at me with the “Minnie and Mickey” thing I always thought their relationship was supposed to be the opposite of that since Sonic is just too cool for dating (or at least he into open relationships) while Amy wants to have stability. After watching: definitely got off track in this debate but I think my point still stands. I do wish there were games that could have their own things like how Mario has: Paper Mario, Mario And Luigi, Luigi’s mansion, etc. but I think Sega has to be willing to let developers do their own thing. Sonic Boom and Mania were practically sabotaged to make it fit within their guidelines which made Boom a laughing stock (I mean I consider it’s own continuity which I actually enjoyed the Sonamy development) and forced Mania into the timeline of Sonic Forces. Sometimes the fans get it right (I will never forget we got the Sonic design to change), but also we get it so wrong. I honestly don’t understand why fans/Sega are so against Sonic world having multiple continuities. We fans practically created our fanfics/comics with non-canon stuff so why can’t Sega? I know unfortunately some people will bitch and moan about it but a reboot or even stories off the path would be so refreshing. Just Sega got to let the developers do their thing, tell the fans it’s different world, and actually let the game be good cause oof Boom could have been great, Sonic Satam was great, Archie was great, Underground was…something but hey people remember it! Just Sega let creative people be creative please!
you have your own anwser, fanfics. the sonic fandom has been bullied and hated so much by the internet thanks to many fanmade contend and spinoff (look how many people to this day still bullied sonic fans for archie sonic or sonic underground) that they develop a need for "official content" and a hate to anything not made/aproved by sega, just look how many people hate movie sonic for not been like "canon" sonic
What development was there for boom sonamy 💀 it’s just the generic girl hides her feelings , will they won’t they trope
@naitsabes622 Boom Amy going from the show was just a sitcom girlfriend/wife in line with Sonic having a sitcom protagonist characterization (he's not a wanderer and is just a superhero who gets in shenanigans with the other boys).
I think calling the SonAmy thing a will they-won't they? relationship would require Sonic to seem like he's romantically interested at all which the only evidence of that is in Ian Flynn's content.
It’s been implied he’s interested in a small handful of games, and X.
@@RealBroccoliHourI guess my main point is that I never felt even teased at a canon SonAmy from any of the games, I get if Ian Flynn interpreted it as that and was annoyed by it but I wish Sonic and Amy didn't "move on" into a couple of water cooler buddies
@@roxonightreturnsunleashed? Lol when he’s sad that Amy didn’t recognize him
@@naitsabes6222 No, but I would say that's proof Sonic doesn't hate their dynamic
@@roxonightreturns yeah he doesn’t 💀
You guys put a lot of weight onto one man being responsible for all issues with the comic, issues that aren't even actually issues but just things you don't want to see, while at the same time doing a lot of assuming, you assume fiynn intentions, you assume that anyone who likes his work and disagrees with your opinions are supper fans of his and lack the ability to understand the problems you see, news flash we can understand your points but just because you think they make sense doesn't actually mean they do. A lot of your guy's points here fall apart when looked at with actually scrutiny and nuances, you structured your points in a way to make them seem like they make sense but they really don't, just because a story isn't being written the way you would like it doesn't make it bad, just because a character is morally conflicted doesn't mean that they are bad.
Valid points you make here..because I noticed that too.
There is so much wrong with this video, it's like you're holding a round peg and in front of you is a round hole but you for some reason think it's a square, it's not a square, the peg fits, you just for some reason think it doesn't.
Overton is overrated like this show...so there!!! 😂😂😂😂
I think Crazy Elf said something like this before, but I hate this notion that Eggman is supposed to be this embodiment of evil who wants to kill everyone and everything. I thought he was supposed to be a goofy ‘80s cartoon villain.
@TubeLoobMouse He's supposed to represent Man and also tycoons, pollution, war/militarism science being misused. Eggman is oblivious to what he's doing to the world and believes his actions will build utopia. His Western characterizations as a rule make him more of a Dark Lord and/or robot Hitler who's pollutive for the sake of it and actively sees himself as a force of darkness in the world.
I get how people might take the rock opera scene as disrespectful or insulting. I personally found it absolutely fucking hilarious. This show is just ... "junk food" entertainment as far as Sonic stuff goes? Not unlike Boom or Adventures. I can dig it in the right dosage, but I'm one of those OG people who got into Sonic in the early days. I'm put off by 2000s "edgy" Sonic, but don't mind the right kind of funny Sonic.
Ian flynn is pretty over hated in my opinion.
Literally did they film the Lez scenes during a tornado?